People Count With Julie Zuraw, CEO of the Thirty Percent Coalition

Dan Berlingeri:  

Hey there. Welcome to People Count, a PeopleReturn podcast where we talk about workforce diversity and human capital management. From a data lens, PeopleReturn is the leading provider of human capital and DEI data for the largest publicly traded companies in the world. We provide the most comprehensive dataset focused on DEI, human capital, and other social factors that are affecting the materiality of company culture, employee retention, and inclusion. I am Dan Berlin-Jeri, and today I’m joined by Julie Zuraw, President and CEO of 30 Percent Coalition, a pioneering advocacy group that increases gender, race, and ethnicity diversity representation on corporate boards and in senior leadership positions. Julie, I’m sure you all have heard about the amazing work that Julie and her organization have been doing, but Julie, thank you so much for being on the podcast today. We’re really thrilled to have you.

Julie Zuraw:  

Thank you. I’m delighted.

Dan Berlingeri:  

Awesome. Julie, how are you on this Monday? How are you doing today?

Julie Zuraw:  

I love Mondays. It’s the start of new possibilities, another week to get good stuff done. So I’m great, thank you.

Dan Berlingeri:  

Well put, that’s the inspiration we all need on a Monday. Fresh on a Monday. Cool. Julie, just for our listeners, most of them, I’m sure know your work very well. You intersect with a lot of advocacy organizations and asset managers and owners out there. Would you just tell us a little bit for those who don’t know about you and your work?

Julie Zuraw:  

Sure, sure. 30 Percent Coalition is a group of institutional investors, asset owners, asset managers, and private equity firms who represent over $8 trillion in assets under management who work to increase diversity in corporate boards. We also have a very robust membership cohort of pipeline-building organizations like Latino Corporate Directors Association, Ascend Pinnacle for Pan-Asian directors, Women Corporate Directors, and so forth. So we’re sort of on the demand creation side of all of this. Our members are encouraging the companies in their holdings to diversify their boards, and we do something every year called Adopt a Company campaign, where we look at laggards. This year we looked at the Russell 3000, those who do not seem to have diversity on their boards and who do not disclose diversity metrics. We send them a letter on behalf of the entire coalition, and our members will each adopt a company or more to do deeper engagement with.

Dan Berlingeri:  

Awesome. Awesome. And I should also say, Julie, just to clarify right up front, so we started as a group that was focused on gender equity, hence the 30 percent, which was never an all-the-way-there goal; it was always an interim goal. We’ve pretty much reached 30 percent in the aggregate of women on boards, at least in the S&P 500. But today we’re focused on gender, racial, ethnic, LGBTQ+, disability diversity, just diversity in all of its forms.

Julie Zuraw:  

Exactly. And as our country becomes more diverse, the consumer base is becoming more diverse, and it’s important to have people on your board who understand your consumers. So there are lots of different reasons that it’s absolutely just a smart business decision, which is why our members, who are some of the largest asset owners and asset managers in the country, are calling on companies to do this.

Dan Berlingeri:  

Excellent. In terms of the demand creation, how are y’all doing that internally today?

Julie Zuraw:  

It’s part of what they’re doing throughout the year, in any case, through engagements. So institutional investors care about the financial sustainability of their holdings, and diversity is one of the factors that drive that. So engagements are going on all the time, and then we add this extra layer with this specific take on companies that we want to reach out to and have extra conversations. But we’re involved in other important things as well, like diversity disclosure right now. Our members and institutional investors are engaging with their companies, voting their proxies based on board composition, and yet it’s not always easy to get a completely standard set of diversity data. Companies aren’t disclosing in a consistent way. We are looking for a way that companies disclose diversity metrics in a consistent way.

Dan Berlingeri:  

Right. So that it’s just easier for everybody to know what’s going on. So, that’s a big push for us too.

Julie Zuraw:  

Exactly. It’s one of those areas where there are varying levels of transparency on the individual level, on behalf of that individual and the company itself, what they choose to disclose about those board members. So, it’s one of those areas that we are still constantly keeping vigilant on around regulation, around the Nasdaq rule, and all of those are perpetually getting challenged. I think the work that y’all are doing on demand creation is always going to be imperative to pushing the frontier of that.

Dan Berlingeri:  

Great work on that. I’m just curious, I’d love to hear a bit more from your experience and what you feel your experience thus far has taught you when it comes to representation on boards from your consulting work. What have you learned most about the space of shareholder advocacy and representation work?

Julie Zuraw:  

What I’ve learned is that the bottom line will always drive smart decision-making. As much as the research has been clear, we think, for a long time about why this is important, why diversity is important, particularly on boards. The reason that in this anti-DEI moment that we’re in, we see that most companies are sticking to their guns. Some people are changing language. Now I’m talking about workforce diversity initiatives here too. People are changing their language. They don’t want to have a target on their back, people are becoming quieter, but the work itself continues because companies know that if you take care of your employees and make them feel acknowledged and help them do a good job at work, you’re going to have better financial performance. People are learning that having more diverse teams and including people on your board who understand your consumers and making sure that you’re getting the best, most qualified board members by having a diverse network of candidates, all of this is leading to better financial outcomes.

Julie Zuraw:  

So at the end of the day, we will fight about it. We will have to work through moments like this, but at the end of the day, it’s going to come out where it needs to come out because it just makes too much business sense. That’s what I’ve learned. And I think that’s how things tend to move. Some people can sort of see it early and start pushing, but no matter what happens next fall, if you’re keeping the long view, as I said, we’re becoming a more diverse country, not a less diverse country. If you want the best talent in your workforce or on your board, you have to be intentional about broadening the network of people that you’re looking at. The more diverse, the better, and the companies who do that in the end are the companies that are going to win. So, you know, in this kind of work, you just keep going. Perseverance, that seems to be the lesson, this perseverance piece.

Dan Berlingeri:  

Yeah. Well, I love this idea you’re highlighting here about whether or not you know it tangibly. We see the value, and I think we’ve had a lot of these talks around how do you measure the materiality? How do you measure financial performance as it relates to these things? And everyone will argue till the cows come home. Is there enough tangible evidence about it? I know that’s one of the biggest challenges to the work that we’re doing. How else is that one of the biggest challenges you’re experiencing from your side? Do you feel that there are, are you facing other challenges to the work that you’re doing?

Julie Zuraw:  

Yes and no. I mean, I think you can tell that I’m a bit of an optimist, and so I don’t get bogged down in challenges because, again, I know we’re going to get to where we’re headed. Now I’ve forgotten your question.

Dan Berlingeri:  

That’s okay. I’ll rephrase. I’m wondering if you see, if your work is challenged in certain ways, what are some of the biggest challenges or hurdles that you’re running into today? Or barriers to entry.

Julie Zuraw:  

Right. So, we’ve been working on urging the SEC to propose a corporate board diversity disclosure rule for some time now. We’ve met with the chair, the commissioners, and people on Capitol Hill. We’ve done a lot of work, and we’re not going to get that rule this term. So, the political environment is always going to impact what happens. Congresswoman Maloney from New York has had legislation in the House for a number of years that would require board diversity disclosure that’s gotten passed in the House but not the Senate. That’s something we keep trying to push through. So, I think on the regulatory front, that’s the challenge right now, getting regulation that says board members have to disclose diversity metrics. This seems basic. A lot of companies already disclose diversity metrics, but not in a consistent way, often only in aggregate or just about gender, not other factors. So, all we’re asking for is some consistency here.

Julie Zuraw:  

Our ask is for voluntary self-disclosure, meaning the mandate is for a company to disclose whatever its board members have chosen to disclose. If you don’t want to disclose anything about yourself, you don’t have to. The idea is to make it a very light lift. That has been a challenge. We work with companies themselves on speaking out about why diversity disclosure matters, why it’s not really hard at all. You just put it in your proxy statement or wherever you want to do it. 

For us, the challenge is achieving diversity metrics disclosure because investors need it. They’ve been asking for it for a long time. So the challenge is looking at how are we going to get this thing done? We have to achieve diversity metrics disclosure. It’s just investors need it. The challenge is finding the right angle to approach it from. That’s the moment we’re in right now. We’re not a country in love with tons of regulation, so there’s an automatic pushback by some folks while others think it makes perfect sense. The more companies that do this on their own, the more it just becomes something that’s expected. Possibly some work at the state level will make a difference. That’s what we’re working on right now.

Dan Berlingeri:  

I want to come back to this hope piece and your abundant optimism. What are some of your hopes for the future, particularly through this next fall coming up? What are some of your hopes? I think around this election, either way it could go, I’d like to hear kind of two realities of that, if that’s okay.

Julie Zuraw:  

I’m very pragmatic about it. Either it’s going to go one way or another. We’re preparing so that our work can continue and be robust whichever direction things go in. So, hopefulness, I mean, one can think it’d be great if we get everything we want and our job is so easy. But I’m just much more pragmatic. You have to prepare for every possible scenario, and then whatever happens, happens. If you’ve prepared well, you’re in the right place.

Dan Berlingeri:  

Nimbleness. We all have to remain as nimble and poised as we can. Anything you’re really looking forward to or excited about on the forefront for 30 Percent Coalition and your work in the next year?

Julie Zuraw:  

We were fortunate to receive some funding for a program that is going to work on language a little bit. Our members have been asking, as we go through this anti-ESG, anti-DEI moment, saying there’s got to be a way through this that helps people understand how basic and non-controversial what we’re doing is, and how inevitable it is that the future of American competitiveness relies on embracing American diversity. It’s always been the thing that’s made us special and strong and can make us stronger the more we embrace it. So, we are creating new language around why diversity matters. We are also creating the first of its kind public database of all of the research that’s been done on board diversity and financial performance over the last 15 years. There’s a lot of practitioner research out there, the McKinsey study, people know the Credit Suisse study, and there’s also a lot of academic research. We are putting that together so it’s just there in one place.

Julie Zuraw:  

The data shows that there is this correlation and it makes sense. Data, though, shows you what happened yesterday. The reason to care about diversity is because if you’re looking to the future in this very uncertain time in terms of technology and AI, in terms of political movements around the world, and how our political environment is going to look, if you’re looking forward in terms of the mandates that already exist in other parts of the world around board diversity, we’re very much behind. You need lots of voices on your board to make sure that you are prepared. There are lots of ways in which the stereotypical homogeneous American corporate board is in no way prepared for the future. It’s really about beyond even the research. It’s about how are we managing risk here, and do we have the right team not for 40 years ago but for 40 years in the future.

Julie Zuraw:  

That includes different voices because of different life experiences due to gender, race, LGBTQ, and disability. But also in terms of maybe you need a CHRO on your board. Maybe you need an AI expert on your board. Maybe you need younger people on the board. There are just all kinds of ways to be smart about the future. You’ve got to broaden your reach. One final thought about that is that it’s really all about networks. When people are looking for new board members, they reach out to people they know. We’re making big decisions here. I want to have people that I trust, we all do it on the 30 Percent Coalition board. We are reaching out to people that are in our networks. If you want the very best people and the top talent and the most diverse group, you have to be intentional about expanding your network and making sure that you are getting to know and becoming involved in groups and with people who are outside of maybe what’s known and comfortable to you. 

Julie Zuraw:  

When you’re making a decision about something as important as a board, before the moment comes when you need a new board member, you are meeting and getting to know potential candidates who can bring you something that you couldn’t have before. That is something we’re doing with our private equity members, is we’re regularly introducing to them a broad diversity of candidates so that when the time comes and they need board members for portfolio companies, they go out to their network. They’re not saying, okay, we need a quote-unquote diverse person. They’re just going out to their network and choosing the best person. If you do that, you’re naturally going to be more diverse.

Dan Berlingeri:  

A hundred percent. That is such an inspiring thought that it comes down to like, it’s not a matter of making a diversity hire, right? That’s one of the biggest criticisms of this space. It’s a matter of building an authentic network of people that helps you build more resilience for the future, future-proofing, right? I think that’s such a strong thought in addition to just the inevitability of growing diversity in this country. One of the biggest risks potentially to a business is not embracing that. That is phenomenal. I have so many more questions for you. I know that we want to keep our time somewhat succinct today, but maybe we’ll have you on for a part two because I have so many more thoughts and questions.

Julie Zuraw:  

I would love it. Thank you.

Dan Berlingeri:  

No, sorry, what were you going to say?

Julie Zuraw:  

I was going to just say thank you for all the important work that you’re doing. Being focused around diversity metrics and data is so critical.

Dan Berlingeri:  

Thank you. We’re trying as hard as we can to fill the gaps where there are so many. It’s hard to do that with intentionality and thoroughness and with a cleanliness that is demanding of this space. I think it’s very easy to make an assumption about someone, and especially when it comes to… I mean, we’re in Pride month right now, right? Everyone on the board is posting, if they are within the community, they’re posting a picture with their family members, highlighting their own personal culture. That’s one of those areas in which there is still such little disclosure. Within disability, within veteran status, there’s just such little visibility into those spaces. Where it is not evident, it’s really imperative to do extra research to make sure that people are self-identifying, that they’re publicly out. It gets… it’s just really important. I’m really just grateful to be able to partner with 30 Percent Coalition. So thank you for all the work that you’re doing. 

Real quick, we have some final couple of minutes here. Do you have any last thoughts or lingering thoughts you wanted to share with our audiences today before we part ways?

Julie Zuraw:  

Keep in mind that we will get there, and that everybody who’s working on this issue… Something else I’ve been struck with in working in this space is how collaborative everybody is. I came to the show having run a couple of large private companies, and in this kind of work, it really is about collaboration. There are a lot of people in a lot of spaces you might not have realized before, like inside these huge institutional investors who are specifically focused on what we’re talking about. There’s so much movement around this from all different quarters that whether we realize it or not, there’s this whole sort of ecosystem working towards getting to a place where workforce diversity and more diversity is just… it’s just the status quo.

Dan Berlingeri:  

Fantastic. It takes a village, and it is certainly a downhill rolling snowball that will hopefully continue to build momentum and size. Well, fantastic. Thank you so much for your time again today. We really hope that you enjoyed today’s episode. If you like this content, there’s plenty more to check out on PeopleReturn.com. That’s D-I-V-E-R-S-I-Q dot com. We have blogs, articles, white papers, and webinars on topics like this, and if you join our newsletter, you can do so at PeopleReturn dot com slash newsletter, and we’ll send you all of those things directly to you once a week. Thanks so much again, Julie, and have a great week ahead.